Tuesday, May 23, 2006
The Dance
No... I'm not talking about a hit Garth Brooks song. I'm talking about the latest "issue" I'm aware of.
Our church is planning a singles dance at our new facility "the cube". I assume this would be the first of several installments. They've purchased a disco ball to bounce light off of and all that..... so I would guess they plan on using it more than once.
The problem is.... I go to a baptist church. Now when we talk about dancing, there are all kinds of ideas, and people will quote all sorts of scripture for and against. Our singles minister has said David danced before God and that paved the way for a singles dance. (that's the best for argument.... not counting our youth pastors argument that Jesus danced too because he was jewish) They've even aruged that this isn't divisive in a baptist church. Honestly, I don't think this type of twisted logic really helps anything. It just hurts one's credibility. There has been discussion about what sorts of music will be played and all of that.
You know.... here's the bottom line to me. We're a baptist church. A good percentage of our people will object to this function happening in our facility. That alone is enough reason to not do it. Period.
It isn't a matter of scriptural vs traditional belief systems.... or dancing right vs wrong. It comes down to two pieces of scripture to me.
From 1st Corinthians 8 " 9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall."
And from Romans 16 " 17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil."
While those supporting the dance insist on arguing its merits or calling the rest of us fundamentilists, or trying to persuade others that we are wrong.... I think this is about them serving their own appetites and sinning against thier brothers in Christ. This is not about them serving the church, building up the church, unifying the church, preaching the gospel, etc. This is about pushing an agenda. An agenda that calls many of us to change what we have believed for years. And not for our sake.... not for the church's sake.... not for culture's sake..... but for the sake of their own appetites.
After some time of contemplation on this issue, that's what I really think.
Romans 12 says Do not be conformed to the world, but be transformed by the renewing of our mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. "
You know it's one of those verses that you memorize when you're in junior high. I learned that scripture years ago with the understanding that I should be warry of "the world". Now it seems that those in our own church are the ones who are pushing us to conform to the world. I wonder sometimes if some of us have temporarily lost that ability to test and approve what God's good, pleasing and perfect will is.
And maybe this will turn out to be a small thing. Maybe it will be the straw on the camel's back that causes only 5 families to leave our church. Not a big split. But how many events like this does it take to hurt our church? The answer is not many.
So for the record I want to say, I remain opposed to events that divide our church for no really good reason. And I will stand on that statement.
Our church is planning a singles dance at our new facility "the cube". I assume this would be the first of several installments. They've purchased a disco ball to bounce light off of and all that..... so I would guess they plan on using it more than once.
The problem is.... I go to a baptist church. Now when we talk about dancing, there are all kinds of ideas, and people will quote all sorts of scripture for and against. Our singles minister has said David danced before God and that paved the way for a singles dance. (that's the best for argument.... not counting our youth pastors argument that Jesus danced too because he was jewish) They've even aruged that this isn't divisive in a baptist church. Honestly, I don't think this type of twisted logic really helps anything. It just hurts one's credibility. There has been discussion about what sorts of music will be played and all of that.
You know.... here's the bottom line to me. We're a baptist church. A good percentage of our people will object to this function happening in our facility. That alone is enough reason to not do it. Period.
It isn't a matter of scriptural vs traditional belief systems.... or dancing right vs wrong. It comes down to two pieces of scripture to me.
From 1st Corinthians 8 " 9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall."
And from Romans 16 " 17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil."
While those supporting the dance insist on arguing its merits or calling the rest of us fundamentilists, or trying to persuade others that we are wrong.... I think this is about them serving their own appetites and sinning against thier brothers in Christ. This is not about them serving the church, building up the church, unifying the church, preaching the gospel, etc. This is about pushing an agenda. An agenda that calls many of us to change what we have believed for years. And not for our sake.... not for the church's sake.... not for culture's sake..... but for the sake of their own appetites.
After some time of contemplation on this issue, that's what I really think.
Romans 12 says Do not be conformed to the world, but be transformed by the renewing of our mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. "
You know it's one of those verses that you memorize when you're in junior high. I learned that scripture years ago with the understanding that I should be warry of "the world". Now it seems that those in our own church are the ones who are pushing us to conform to the world. I wonder sometimes if some of us have temporarily lost that ability to test and approve what God's good, pleasing and perfect will is.
And maybe this will turn out to be a small thing. Maybe it will be the straw on the camel's back that causes only 5 families to leave our church. Not a big split. But how many events like this does it take to hurt our church? The answer is not many.
So for the record I want to say, I remain opposed to events that divide our church for no really good reason. And I will stand on that statement.
# posted by kjam22 @ 12:09 PM 
Comments:
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Pretty much why would they even choose to dread this water? My husband wrote a most excellent example of what he thinks but isn't ready for me to post it for him. Be seeking out James's blog for the comment.
# posted by 
: 12:58 PM
: 12:58 PM
i think james deleted his post. anyway if you wish to continue correspondence my email is paulsfamily@cox.net
# posted by : 2:45 PM
: 2:45 PM
Depending upon the Christian culture, dancing (like drinking alcohol) is either acceptable or unacceptable. In our Christian Evangelical world here in Ecuador, both dancing and drinking would definitely be unacceptable for Christians. However, they would also put smoking in the same category even more serious than the other two! To them there is no way a person could be a Christian and smoke; while in the USA we know there are plenty of active church going professing Christians who smoke!
In many parts of Europe and Southern South America Christians do not think a thing in the world about drinking alcohol, of course that would be taboo for most other Christians in other places, but it isn't an issue for them at all.
My point? Your Scripture quotation of Paul's writings would seem to apply. It's not so much that dancing is wrong, but if it hurts, or offends weaker brothers, it is out.
One question for you, though, if this dance were to be held outside of "church" and were an independent dance not associated with the church, would it be all right for those same people to attend? If it is OK to dance outside of church, it should be OK to dance inside of church. IMHO we shouldn't be doing anything "outside of church" that couldn't be done "inside of church."
In many parts of Europe and Southern South America Christians do not think a thing in the world about drinking alcohol, of course that would be taboo for most other Christians in other places, but it isn't an issue for them at all.
My point? Your Scripture quotation of Paul's writings would seem to apply. It's not so much that dancing is wrong, but if it hurts, or offends weaker brothers, it is out.
One question for you, though, if this dance were to be held outside of "church" and were an independent dance not associated with the church, would it be all right for those same people to attend? If it is OK to dance outside of church, it should be OK to dance inside of church. IMHO we shouldn't be doing anything "outside of church" that couldn't be done "inside of church."
Guy... I think you missed the point of the scipture text. I think whether or not it is held in the church is the factor.
I'm not here to judge dancers or dancing. That's not my job, that's not what this is about for me. It's their business what they do away from the church. But I think if you bring it inside the church, and it hurts the church (and I promise you this will hurt our church to a degree)..... then that is the issue. I think you can say that about most anything.
I'm not here to judge dancers or dancing. That's not my job, that's not what this is about for me. It's their business what they do away from the church. But I think if you bring it inside the church, and it hurts the church (and I promise you this will hurt our church to a degree)..... then that is the issue. I think you can say that about most anything.
I think Guy's comment is very applicable, however, I do not understand the need for serious christians who are contemplating the will of God and seeking HIs power and presence in their lives would be interested in this inside or outside the church. My Lord, where is the distinction? This is nothing more than a flesh festival. Here is my question...what deos the pastor say? Is he for this? Is he leading in this? If so...well dude, I would be finding myself a new church.
God grant our Baptist church's reformation!
Jack
God grant our Baptist church's reformation!
Jack
I hesitated to comment on this, but felt that I may as well put my oar in (everyone else will, right?).
I dance. Actually, I can say that I am a dancer. I know how to two-step; box-step; tango; waltz; shag (and for you Brits out there, this is North Carolina shagging! build a bridge and get over it!); contra-dance; English-country dance and even minuet. I learned most or all of the above as a child and have added on over the years. I have to admit that my wife also dances, and quite frankly I doubt that she would have married anyone who could not dance (side-note: we danced at our wedding. I know most people do ... but I have been to some weddings where the happy young couple did not dance, they held onto each other in a close embrace and struggled to move to the music - mostly it looked like a private act in a public place - but it was NOT dancing).
I'm not a member of your church, but I think that WERE I a member, I'd be for the dance. Not knowing what "the cube" is, I can only assume that it is a place for your singles to mix and mingle. And listen to music. And talk with each other. And now they want to add dancing. horrors! The next thing you know, they will be asking for private rooms!!! but seriously, folks. Would it not be a better environment to have a dance in a location that can be controlled and monitored? If dancing is going to happen ... and apparently it will ... then maybe it should happen where some teachings can be imparted. If possible, have someone from your church (who knows how to waltz, maybe?) teach the young folks a thing or two. Even in OK, I'm pretty sure that you have one or two members who know how to dance, or remember it from their childhood or youth. Back when dancing was not only allowed, but was taught!
I guess for me, it's not a sin to dance. It's certainly not named on the larger list in the Book *I* read. If you, personally, find dance to be a stumbling block for those around you, then don't dance. The words from Roamns 16 certainly seem to apply to you. I guess I'd be confused because what *I* was taught (the teaching I have learned, to paraphrase) never spoke against dancing.
/*separate comment for Jack*/
flesh festival?
build a bridge, Jack.
build a bridge!
/*end comment*/
oh...quick question...while your band is up there playing, is everybody else in the audience just sitting and listening and not moving at all? just curious ...
I dance. Actually, I can say that I am a dancer. I know how to two-step; box-step; tango; waltz; shag (and for you Brits out there, this is North Carolina shagging! build a bridge and get over it!); contra-dance; English-country dance and even minuet. I learned most or all of the above as a child and have added on over the years. I have to admit that my wife also dances, and quite frankly I doubt that she would have married anyone who could not dance (side-note: we danced at our wedding. I know most people do ... but I have been to some weddings where the happy young couple did not dance, they held onto each other in a close embrace and struggled to move to the music - mostly it looked like a private act in a public place - but it was NOT dancing).
I'm not a member of your church, but I think that WERE I a member, I'd be for the dance. Not knowing what "the cube" is, I can only assume that it is a place for your singles to mix and mingle. And listen to music. And talk with each other. And now they want to add dancing. horrors! The next thing you know, they will be asking for private rooms!!! but seriously, folks. Would it not be a better environment to have a dance in a location that can be controlled and monitored? If dancing is going to happen ... and apparently it will ... then maybe it should happen where some teachings can be imparted. If possible, have someone from your church (who knows how to waltz, maybe?) teach the young folks a thing or two. Even in OK, I'm pretty sure that you have one or two members who know how to dance, or remember it from their childhood or youth. Back when dancing was not only allowed, but was taught!
I guess for me, it's not a sin to dance. It's certainly not named on the larger list in the Book *I* read. If you, personally, find dance to be a stumbling block for those around you, then don't dance. The words from Roamns 16 certainly seem to apply to you. I guess I'd be confused because what *I* was taught (the teaching I have learned, to paraphrase) never spoke against dancing.
/*separate comment for Jack*/
flesh festival?
build a bridge, Jack.
build a bridge!
/*end comment*/
oh...quick question...while your band is up there playing, is everybody else in the audience just sitting and listening and not moving at all? just curious ...
# posted by : 12:22 AM
: 12:22 AM
Thanks for the comments guys.
For the record...."the cube" is the new family life center our church has built. 2 Basketball courts, video arcades, coffee shop, and worship facility for the youth. (now it has a disco ball in it too)
The singles have been having dances for a while at a local community center. They've recently decided to start having them in our family life center.
Our Pastor is in favor of this.
Most of the time when our band plays..... we're at a local restraunt. Good size barbque place that has live music nightly. We also play for events in our and other churches. Probably the person closest to dancing there is me... I generally get a good groove going :) We played a benefit concert for a lady with cancer a couple of weeks ago... and there were a couple of kids who had some really good moves. But they weren't couples dancing :)
Seriously.... thanks for the comments guys.
For the record...."the cube" is the new family life center our church has built. 2 Basketball courts, video arcades, coffee shop, and worship facility for the youth. (now it has a disco ball in it too)
The singles have been having dances for a while at a local community center. They've recently decided to start having them in our family life center.
Our Pastor is in favor of this.
Most of the time when our band plays..... we're at a local restraunt. Good size barbque place that has live music nightly. We also play for events in our and other churches. Probably the person closest to dancing there is me... I generally get a good groove going :) We played a benefit concert for a lady with cancer a couple of weeks ago... and there were a couple of kids who had some really good moves. But they weren't couples dancing :)
Seriously.... thanks for the comments guys.
Angela has posted on her blog what I think is the difinitive post regarding the propsed dance at our church. I've taken the liberty of pasting it in here..... It is as follows:
Shall We Dance? (Part 2)
If It's Not Fun for Everyone, It's Not Fun
(all italics are mine)
"Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall." Romans 14:19-21
(James Hunt's thoughts on this passage)
"He further instructed that we should all "pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another (v.19)...and that "it is not good to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles [context = stumbles means causes someone to stumble into sin] (v.21).Paul didn't say that he quit eating meat or that he quit drinking wine. That wasn't his point. The point = don't use your freedoms to another's spiritual detriment.Spiritual detriment / hindrance is the the issue on the table...not the comfort level of subjective preferences." James Hunt
I (Angela) am wondering about "pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another." (v.19).
Here's a thought...
"Everything is permissible", but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible", but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. 1 Corinthians 10:23-24
or said another way:
"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth." 1 Corinthians 10:23-24
John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
"All things are lawful for me"
All sorts of food are lawful to be eaten, every creature of God is good, there is nothing common or unclean in itself, polluted or polluting; and so things offered to idols may be lawfully eaten, but not as such, or in an idol's temple, or before a weak brother; to do which is contrary to the honour of God, and the edification of the saints: and therefore
"all things are not expedient;"
to be done always, and in all places, and before all persons. The apostle suggests, that though they might be lawful to him, and he might make use of his liberty in eating them; yet they might not be expedient, or of service, but on the contrary hurtful to others; and which therefore ought to be judged a sufficient reason for the omission of them:
"all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not;"
though things of an indifferent nature may be lawfully used, yet they do not always tend to the edification of others, which should be consulted; and when this is the case, they ought to be disused. This is observed in answer to an objection taken from the doctrine of Christian liberty, allowing the free use of all the creatures, and disengaging men from an observance of the distinction of meats and drinks which the apostle grants; and yet argues from his own example, and the edification of the saints, that this is not always to be closely pursued; but believers should forego what they have a right to use, when the peace and welfare of their fellow Christians require it.
Matthew Henry
He (Paul)gives a caution against abusing our liberty in lawful things. That may be lawful which is not expedient, which will not edify. A Christian must not barely consider what is lawful, but what is expedient, and for the use of edification. A private Christian should do so even in his private conduct. He must not seek his own only, but his neighbour's wealth. He must be concerned not to hurt his neighbour, nay, he must be concerned to promote his welfare; and must consider how to act so that he may help others, and not hinder them in their holiness, comfort, or salvation. Those who allow themselves in every thing not plainly sinful in itself will often run into what is evil by accident, and do much mischief to others. Every thing lawful in itself to be done is not therefore lawfully done. Circumstances may make that a sin which in itself is none. These must be weighed, and the expediency of an action, and its tendency to edification, must be considered before it be done. Note, The welfare of others, as well as our own convenience, must be consulted in many things we do, if we would do them well.
Here are the bookends to the Romans 14 passage used at the beginning of this blog.
"Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convincedfood isno foodis unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
It is a general belief among Southern Baptists that social dancing, with all its trappings, is wrong. I plan to talk a little about this in my next post. But notice that Paul does not say, "Try to talk your brother out of this belief." Sometimes things are sins for one and not for another. And in our denomination, as a general rule, people don't approve.
Look at the words of Matthew Henry again:
"Those who allow themselves in every thing not plainly sinful in itself will often run into what is evil by accident, and do much mischief to others."
So, if it is fine for James and a group of the Singles in our church to dance, meaning that they do not feel that this opens the door to other naughty behavior for them (and that could absolutely be the case), I believe that these words from Paul apply:
So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. Romans 14:22 NIV
said another way,
You may have the faith to believe that there is nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who do not condemn themselves by doing something they know is all right. Romans 14:22 NLT
or like this,
What you believe about these things should be kept between you and God. You are fortunate, if your actions don't make you have doubts. Romans 14:22 CEV
So here is a question. We all (James, Rick, Kenny, Kristina, me) belong to the Southern Baptist denomination. As such, we can expect a few things (at least right this minute)
1. No wine at the Wednesday night dinner
2. No speaking in tongues at the Sunday morning service
3. No "falling out" in the Spirit.
4. No "night of miracles" healing service.
5. No praying for the baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues.
6. No snake handling.
7. No sprinkling baptism.
8. No prophetic word by church members in a worship service.
9. No social dances (see first sentence of the Oklahoma Baptist University position on dancing and Southern Baptists)
10. (if you have others, post them, and I will add)
If any of these were to change, it would seem that (because we and a few thousand other people joined Council Road Baptist Church with the understanding that it would have the values held in most Southern Baptist Churches), everyone should be made aware.
As I have stated before, when the CUBE was in the "idea" stage (and we were being asked to pay for it, as a gift to the community), there was no mention to the congregation that it would ever be used for social dances.
Maybe a Sunday night meeting that was well advertised to all with opportunities for questions after the presentation would be in order.(??)
In fact, if there was going to be a change in the character of our denomination (and it was obviously beneficial to the entire body to do so), it would seem that maybe a meeting with BGCO members would be a good idea. Not to get a "yea"or "nay", as I think our churches are run autonomously, but for support, as I think it would be an uphill climb to convince some of the pillars of the church that this was a good idea.
I found this(below) kind of interesting, when I was trying to get the real scoop on the topic of dancing in our denominations.
Christ Centered Colleges and Universities in Our Area
Southern Nazarene University
"Our sponsoring denomination, the Church of the Nazarene, has established principles designed to develop Christian character and promote growth in holy living. Therefore, these serve as guidelines for community life at SNU. Specifically, entertainment (including media productions) that promotes the violent, the sensual, the pornographic, the profane, or the occultic should be avoided.
Also included is an expectation that SNU students avoid social dancing. SNU and its member organizations are not to provide, sponsor, or conduct social dances on or off campus. Attendance at establishments or activities at which such behavior is the focus is prohibited."(SNU Student Handbook)
Oklahoma Baptist University
"(6)Dancing
The traditional position of Oklahoma Southern Baptist churches is reflected by University policy which prohibits dancing on campus. University organizations may not sponsor dances off campus." The Green Book- OBU Student Handbook
Oklahoma Christian University
"Many expectations of OC students are biblically based. Others expectations, while not necessarily based on scripture, are necessary for the good of the entire community. These expectations enable the community to function and operate peaceably and in harmony with each other and the mission of the University.
Undergraduate students are especially susceptible to certain temptations in today's society. For the sake of a healthy lifestyle and their Christian influence (Philippians 2:3-4; Romans 14:19-22a) we believe that students should completely avoid these temptations at all times and in all places.We take the following expectations quite seriously and are diligent in enforcing them on campus or at any University-related event."
"9.Dancing on campus or at University sanctioned activities."
These college students are not supposed to be dancing socially. I do not know whether the Singles Ministry in our church is inviting the University students, but after looking at our church website, it is evident that the University Ministry falls under Singles.
If this activity, being held at our church, is beneficial to the Body of Christ, maybe our church leadership should go before these Christ Centered schools and explain their position, so that the students would have the opportunity to participate in this church activity.
Again, I will say that I think dancing is a gray area. I think it is not an individual choice (a freebie from God), but something that is between the individual and God. Apparently Paul felt the same way when he said (about issues of liberty):
"So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God." Romans 14:22a
If, after thinking about it, praying about it, searching out the Scriptures, a person feels that God has given His blessing on that person attending social dances with Christ centered sacred and secular music (or any other kind of dance, I guess), he/she should be able to attend such an animal at an institution where the members believe it is beneficial and edifying for all Believers to attend and dance in the spirit of fellowship. (All Believers who have not signed a code of conduct that ways they aren't supposed to dance socially.)
I think that this was the situation when the dance was at the Warr Acres Community Center. I don't understand why it is now being sponsored by our church, at the CUBE community center. Maybe they should have the dance there...
Shall We Dance? (Part 2)
If It's Not Fun for Everyone, It's Not Fun
(all italics are mine)
"Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall." Romans 14:19-21
(James Hunt's thoughts on this passage)
"He further instructed that we should all "pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another (v.19)...and that "it is not good to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles [context = stumbles means causes someone to stumble into sin] (v.21).Paul didn't say that he quit eating meat or that he quit drinking wine. That wasn't his point. The point = don't use your freedoms to another's spiritual detriment.Spiritual detriment / hindrance is the the issue on the table...not the comfort level of subjective preferences." James Hunt
I (Angela) am wondering about "pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another." (v.19).
Here's a thought...
"Everything is permissible", but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible", but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. 1 Corinthians 10:23-24
or said another way:
"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth." 1 Corinthians 10:23-24
John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
"All things are lawful for me"
All sorts of food are lawful to be eaten, every creature of God is good, there is nothing common or unclean in itself, polluted or polluting; and so things offered to idols may be lawfully eaten, but not as such, or in an idol's temple, or before a weak brother; to do which is contrary to the honour of God, and the edification of the saints: and therefore
"all things are not expedient;"
to be done always, and in all places, and before all persons. The apostle suggests, that though they might be lawful to him, and he might make use of his liberty in eating them; yet they might not be expedient, or of service, but on the contrary hurtful to others; and which therefore ought to be judged a sufficient reason for the omission of them:
"all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not;"
though things of an indifferent nature may be lawfully used, yet they do not always tend to the edification of others, which should be consulted; and when this is the case, they ought to be disused. This is observed in answer to an objection taken from the doctrine of Christian liberty, allowing the free use of all the creatures, and disengaging men from an observance of the distinction of meats and drinks which the apostle grants; and yet argues from his own example, and the edification of the saints, that this is not always to be closely pursued; but believers should forego what they have a right to use, when the peace and welfare of their fellow Christians require it.
Matthew Henry
He (Paul)gives a caution against abusing our liberty in lawful things. That may be lawful which is not expedient, which will not edify. A Christian must not barely consider what is lawful, but what is expedient, and for the use of edification. A private Christian should do so even in his private conduct. He must not seek his own only, but his neighbour's wealth. He must be concerned not to hurt his neighbour, nay, he must be concerned to promote his welfare; and must consider how to act so that he may help others, and not hinder them in their holiness, comfort, or salvation. Those who allow themselves in every thing not plainly sinful in itself will often run into what is evil by accident, and do much mischief to others. Every thing lawful in itself to be done is not therefore lawfully done. Circumstances may make that a sin which in itself is none. These must be weighed, and the expediency of an action, and its tendency to edification, must be considered before it be done. Note, The welfare of others, as well as our own convenience, must be consulted in many things we do, if we would do them well.
Here are the bookends to the Romans 14 passage used at the beginning of this blog.
"Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convincedfood isno foodis unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
It is a general belief among Southern Baptists that social dancing, with all its trappings, is wrong. I plan to talk a little about this in my next post. But notice that Paul does not say, "Try to talk your brother out of this belief." Sometimes things are sins for one and not for another. And in our denomination, as a general rule, people don't approve.
Look at the words of Matthew Henry again:
"Those who allow themselves in every thing not plainly sinful in itself will often run into what is evil by accident, and do much mischief to others."
So, if it is fine for James and a group of the Singles in our church to dance, meaning that they do not feel that this opens the door to other naughty behavior for them (and that could absolutely be the case), I believe that these words from Paul apply:
So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. Romans 14:22 NIV
said another way,
You may have the faith to believe that there is nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who do not condemn themselves by doing something they know is all right. Romans 14:22 NLT
or like this,
What you believe about these things should be kept between you and God. You are fortunate, if your actions don't make you have doubts. Romans 14:22 CEV
So here is a question. We all (James, Rick, Kenny, Kristina, me) belong to the Southern Baptist denomination. As such, we can expect a few things (at least right this minute)
1. No wine at the Wednesday night dinner
2. No speaking in tongues at the Sunday morning service
3. No "falling out" in the Spirit.
4. No "night of miracles" healing service.
5. No praying for the baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues.
6. No snake handling.
7. No sprinkling baptism.
8. No prophetic word by church members in a worship service.
9. No social dances (see first sentence of the Oklahoma Baptist University position on dancing and Southern Baptists)
10. (if you have others, post them, and I will add)
If any of these were to change, it would seem that (because we and a few thousand other people joined Council Road Baptist Church with the understanding that it would have the values held in most Southern Baptist Churches), everyone should be made aware.
As I have stated before, when the CUBE was in the "idea" stage (and we were being asked to pay for it, as a gift to the community), there was no mention to the congregation that it would ever be used for social dances.
Maybe a Sunday night meeting that was well advertised to all with opportunities for questions after the presentation would be in order.(??)
In fact, if there was going to be a change in the character of our denomination (and it was obviously beneficial to the entire body to do so), it would seem that maybe a meeting with BGCO members would be a good idea. Not to get a "yea"or "nay", as I think our churches are run autonomously, but for support, as I think it would be an uphill climb to convince some of the pillars of the church that this was a good idea.
I found this(below) kind of interesting, when I was trying to get the real scoop on the topic of dancing in our denominations.
Christ Centered Colleges and Universities in Our Area
Southern Nazarene University
"Our sponsoring denomination, the Church of the Nazarene, has established principles designed to develop Christian character and promote growth in holy living. Therefore, these serve as guidelines for community life at SNU. Specifically, entertainment (including media productions) that promotes the violent, the sensual, the pornographic, the profane, or the occultic should be avoided.
Also included is an expectation that SNU students avoid social dancing. SNU and its member organizations are not to provide, sponsor, or conduct social dances on or off campus. Attendance at establishments or activities at which such behavior is the focus is prohibited."(SNU Student Handbook)
Oklahoma Baptist University
"(6)Dancing
The traditional position of Oklahoma Southern Baptist churches is reflected by University policy which prohibits dancing on campus. University organizations may not sponsor dances off campus." The Green Book- OBU Student Handbook
Oklahoma Christian University
"Many expectations of OC students are biblically based. Others expectations, while not necessarily based on scripture, are necessary for the good of the entire community. These expectations enable the community to function and operate peaceably and in harmony with each other and the mission of the University.
Undergraduate students are especially susceptible to certain temptations in today's society. For the sake of a healthy lifestyle and their Christian influence (Philippians 2:3-4; Romans 14:19-22a) we believe that students should completely avoid these temptations at all times and in all places.We take the following expectations quite seriously and are diligent in enforcing them on campus or at any University-related event."
"9.Dancing on campus or at University sanctioned activities."
These college students are not supposed to be dancing socially. I do not know whether the Singles Ministry in our church is inviting the University students, but after looking at our church website, it is evident that the University Ministry falls under Singles.
If this activity, being held at our church, is beneficial to the Body of Christ, maybe our church leadership should go before these Christ Centered schools and explain their position, so that the students would have the opportunity to participate in this church activity.
Again, I will say that I think dancing is a gray area. I think it is not an individual choice (a freebie from God), but something that is between the individual and God. Apparently Paul felt the same way when he said (about issues of liberty):
"So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God." Romans 14:22a
If, after thinking about it, praying about it, searching out the Scriptures, a person feels that God has given His blessing on that person attending social dances with Christ centered sacred and secular music (or any other kind of dance, I guess), he/she should be able to attend such an animal at an institution where the members believe it is beneficial and edifying for all Believers to attend and dance in the spirit of fellowship. (All Believers who have not signed a code of conduct that ways they aren't supposed to dance socially.)
I think that this was the situation when the dance was at the Warr Acres Community Center. I don't understand why it is now being sponsored by our church, at the CUBE community center. Maybe they should have the dance there...
guymouse and ken;
I agree with you both. This is an issue of each individual's (or couples)convictions. For my husband and I it is past the line. Personally I don't want to attend a church that hosts dances when I don't agree with it. Am I supposed to tell my son (years down the line when he's in youth) that although we go to such-and-such church, he's not allowed to go to this event they are sponsoring because I believe it is wrong?
We feel the convictions to find another church home.
I agree with you both. This is an issue of each individual's (or couples)convictions. For my husband and I it is past the line. Personally I don't want to attend a church that hosts dances when I don't agree with it. Am I supposed to tell my son (years down the line when he's in youth) that although we go to such-and-such church, he's not allowed to go to this event they are sponsoring because I believe it is wrong?
We feel the convictions to find another church home.
# posted by : 8:08 PM
: 8:08 PM
Hi Kristina,
I am sorry that our church has moved ideologically to where it is. I've been here for many years. I'm partly responsible for letting it get to where it is. I'm a deacon in our church, and prior to this event I've not really stood up enough for what the congregation believes. I will take my share of the blame.
I would tell you that there is much dicussion going on in our church right now at various levels about this dance, and future dances.
I appreciate your willingness to listen to what God is telling you, and to seek those convictions. Please let me know where you visit.... and your thoughts of the churches. You can post them on my site, or email me. I am pretty confident that before this is over with my wife and I will have to be there with you guys.
Please remember me in your prayers for the next few days.
Thanks Kristina.
I am sorry that our church has moved ideologically to where it is. I've been here for many years. I'm partly responsible for letting it get to where it is. I'm a deacon in our church, and prior to this event I've not really stood up enough for what the congregation believes. I will take my share of the blame.
I would tell you that there is much dicussion going on in our church right now at various levels about this dance, and future dances.
I appreciate your willingness to listen to what God is telling you, and to seek those convictions. Please let me know where you visit.... and your thoughts of the churches. You can post them on my site, or email me. I am pretty confident that before this is over with my wife and I will have to be there with you guys.
Please remember me in your prayers for the next few days.
Thanks Kristina.
Same here. Tomorrow we are visiting Chisolm Heights Baptist in Mustang. We live in Mustang. We have met the pastor before and he seems more conservative. We'll see.
Keep us in your prayers too.
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Keep us in your prayers too.
# posted by : 2:56 PM
: 2:56 PM << Home
